A $229,000 Medical Invoice Goes to Courtroom

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In 2014, Lisa French had spinal surgical procedure. Earlier than the operation, she was instructed she must pay $1,337 in out-of-pocket prices and that her insurance coverage would cowl the remainder. Nevertheless, the hospital ended up sending French a invoice for $229,000. When she didn’t pay, it sued her.

The case went all the best way to the Colorado Supreme Courtroom. On this episode of “An Arm and a Leg,” host Dan Weissmann finds out how the courtroom dominated and the way the choice is reshaping the advantageous print on hospital payments in ways in which may price sufferers some huge cash.

Dan Weissmann


@danweissmann

Host and producer of “An Arm and a Leg.” Beforehand, Dan was a workers reporter for Market and Chicago’s WBEZ. His work additionally seems on All Issues Thought of, Market, the BBC, 99 P.c Invisible, and Reveal, from the Middle for Investigative Reporting.

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Emily Pisacreta
Producer

Adam Raymonda
Audio Wizard

Afi Yellow-Duke
Editor

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Transcript: A $229,000 Medical Invoice Goes to Courtroom

Be aware: “An Arm and a Leg” makes use of speech-recognition software program to generate transcripts, which can comprise errors. Please use the transcript as a device however test the corresponding audio earlier than quoting the podcast.

Dan: Hey there–

Lisa French was a clerk for a trucking firm in Denver. She’d been in a automobile crash, and her physician instructed her that to maintain her backbone secure, she must get surgical procedure.

She requested the oldsters on the hospital what it was gonna price her, out of pocket. They ran her insurance coverage and instructed her: Your finish goes to be one thousand, 300 thirty-six {dollars}, and ninety cents.

She stated, thanks.

Then, she and her husband sat down at their kitchen desk and talked it over: That they had a rainy-day fund. A thousand {dollars} they’d socked away, they saved it at house, in money. Had been they able to spend all of it for this? 

They determined they had been, and Lisa went to the hospital with a thousand {dollars} money. 

She had the surgical procedure, it went advantageous. The hospital had been anticipating about 55 thousand {dollars} from Lisa’s insurance coverage. They really received extra like 74 thousand.

However they determined that wasn’t sufficient. They determined they needed their full sticker value: 303 thousand {dollars}. So that they billed Lisa French for the remainder: 229 thousand {dollars}.

And after they didn’t get it, they sued her.

Lisa French had her surgical procedure in 2014. The courtroom case lastly received resolved final 12 months, in 2022, by the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

When you’ve been listening to this present for some time, you in all probability keep in mind: We’ve gotten VERY all in favour of understanding, once we get a wild medical invoice, what authorized rights do we now have? How can we use these rights to struggle again? Even on a small scale, like in small claims courtroom? 

And although Lisa French’s case is a LONG manner from small claims courtroom, it has a LOT to show us about these questions.

That is An Arm and a Leg, a present about why well being care prices so freaking a lot, and what we will possibly do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a problem. So our job on this present is to take one of the enraging, terrifying, miserable components of American life, and convey you one thing entertaining, empowering, and helpful.

And I ought to say upfront: We gained’t be listening to from Lisa French straight.

Her case made a whole lot of headlines– in 2018, when a jury heard it, in YEAR when an appeals courtroom overturned the trial courtroom, and final 12 months when the state supreme courtroom made its ruling.

Not within the sort of element that we’re gonna go into, however come on: Who can resist the headline?

Male Anchor: Properly, tonight we now have a narrative of David versus Goliath. David being a girl who wanted spinal surgical procedure in 2014 Goliath, the hospital that charged her greater than $200,000 to do it.

Dan: So over time, a whole lot of reporters needed a sound chew from Lisa French. Her legal professional used to let her know when there was an inquiry, and she or he’d say sure or no.

Finally, she instructed her lawyer: Don’t even inform me after they name anymore. I simply need to dwell my life.

Honest sufficient.

So right here’s who we’ve received.

Ted Lavender: I’m Ted Lavender. I’m an legal professional in Atlanta, Georgia. I’ve been training regulation for 26 years,

Dan: And he spent a number of of these years representing Lisa French.

It’s in all probability value answering one query up entrance: If Lisa French needed to empty her household’s rainy-day fund to pay the hospital a thousand bucks, who’s paying the lawyer from Atlanta?

The insurance coverage from her job. Which had performed a job in beginning the entire mess.

Ted Lavender: the corporate that she labored for had a well being advantages plan that was barely completely different than what you would possibly name run of the mill medical insurance.

Dan: It labored this fashion: They weren’t in-network with any hospitals. As a substitute, they’d simply take no matter invoice any hospital despatched, make their very own analysis of what a good value could be, and ship the hospital a test.

It’s a considerably uncommon mannequin– one survey says about 2 % of employers use a plan like this– however Ted Lavender says it typically works.

Ted Lavender: a really giant proportion of the time , the hospital would settle for the test and nobody would hear something extra from the hospital, which in authorized parlance would imply acceptance

Dan: And as a backstop, in case there was any hassle, the well being plan would ship a lawyer. That’s Ted.

And right here’s what occurred that led to all the difficulty in Lisa French’s case: Whoever ran her insurance coverage card on the hospital, they didn’t learn it very rigorously.

If they’d, they might’ve seen a bit emblem underneath the insurance-company identify that stated, “supplier solely” — that’s: This plan solely has docs and nurses and different PROVIDERS in community.

With hospitals, there’s no community, no “in-network price.” We’ll simply ship a test for what we expect is correct.

The identical health-benefits firm has a distinct plan, one which does have a hospital community. You know the way it’s. Insurance coverage firms, one million completely different plans, each one its personal snowflake.

The hospital mistook Lisa French’s snowflake for an additional one, and that’s how they got here up with that estimate.

Ted Lavender: primarily based on their calculation, they anticipated to gather a complete of

$56,000, the 1,336 from Ms. French and the rest from her well being plan.

Dan: And so they presumably would’ve been pleased with 56 thousand. However they received extra. They received about 75 thousand {dollars}.

However as soon as they received it, they wised as much as the error they’d made about Lisa French’s insurance coverage. That they had no settlement with the insurance coverage plan to simply accept 56 thousand.

So, they determined: There’s no purpose for us to not cost our full sticker value right here.300 and three thousand {dollars}.

So Lisa French had been anticipating a invoice for 300 thirty-six {dollars} and ninety cents. That’s the distinction between what she’d been quoted and the thousand {dollars} she’d paid prematurely. However the invoice she received wasn’t what she anticipated.

Ted Lavender: it turned out to be a whopper of a invoice. We ended up with an itemized invoice that confirmed each line merchandise for each cost that totaled this

$303,000

After which on the backside was, you realize, subtracting the thousand she paid, subtracting the cash the insurance coverage paid, leaving a steadiness of 229,000 and alter

Dan: After all, Lisa French didn’t have 229 thousand {dollars}, or something prefer it.

Ted Lavender: Finally she received a go to from the sheriff who served her with a lawsuit and she or he was sued for that $229,000.

Dan: And that’s the place Ted Lavender entered the scene.

The jury trial in 2018 took six days. As Ted Lavender says, it wasn’t precisely a splashy homicide trial, when it comes to drama.

Ted Lavender: this was a six day trial involving hospital billing. So, you realize, there was no homicide weapon. There was no aha, massive, gotcha second that was actually thrilling.

Dan: However Ted Lavender did his finest. Like one time, when he received a hospital govt on the witness stand.

To stabilize Lisa French’s backbone, surgeons had implanted 13 items of metallic into her physique. So Ted Lavender had the hospital govt stroll the jury via the value for every of these bits of metallic. Or really, the costs..

Ted Lavender: And I first confirmed him the itemized invoice and requested him to determine what they charged for these 13 items of {hardware} .

I had given him type of an outsized calculator that was sitting there in entrance of him on the witness stand, admittedly, for some dramatic impact

And thru including these up on the itemized invoice, he arrived on the quantity which was $197,000.

Dan: 100 and ninety-seven thousand {dollars}. In order that’s about two-thirds of the 300 and three thousand {dollars} the hospital is making an attempt to cost Lisa French.

After which the following factor I did was I handed within the 13 invoices that we had acquired from the hospital,

Dan: That’s, Ted handed the man the invoices the hospital had acquired — and paid — when it purchased these bits of metallic..

Ted Lavender: and I requested him so as to add up and inform this jury what did the hospital pay for these 13 items of {hardware}.

He’s including, and he’s including and he’s punching in numbers, and he’s turning pages and he’s including, and he’s including with every addition, with every plus the jury appeared to ease a bit nearer as much as the entrance of their chair, and finally he arrived on the complete, which was $31,000 and alter.

Dan: So the hospital’s charging like six and a half occasions what they paid. And that’s two thirds of this 300 thousand greenback invoice.

Ted Lavender: It simply, you realize, the jury seemingly didn’t like that.

Dan: In order that was a very good second for Lisa French’s aspect. I imply getting the jury mad on the different aspect, that’s a win.

And the massive calculator wasn’t Ted Lavender’s solely visible: He additionally had a large post-it observe, the place he wrote down, in magic marker, all of the completely different costs the hospital accepted for the surgical procedure, relying on who was paying.

Ted Lavender: and we received these numbers from the hospital, they might’ve accepted $146,000 from non-public insurance coverage.

Dan: That’s lower than half of what they had been making an attempt to cost Lisa French. And so they accepted lower than that — a LOT much less — from government-funded insurance coverage, like Medicare, Medicaid, or Tricare, which covers of us within the navy.

Ted Lavender: The typical of what they might’ve accepted for these. Procedures that Ms. French had had been $63,199. Once more, Ms. French and her insurance coverage firm mixed paid nearly $75,000.

Dan: You’ll be able to hear that post-it rustling round. It was a very good prop, he’s held onto it. So, he’d proven the jury that the hospital charged a HUGE markup, and that what they had been suing Lisa French for was manner, far more than they charged anyone else.

On the hospital’s aspect, they had been like, Yeah, however that is our precise sticker value. And Lisa French signed a bit of paper that stated she would pay “all prices of the hospital.”

So the hospital was like, yep, and these are our prices. That 303 thousand {dollars}, it comes from an inventory we hold. It’s referred to as the chargemaster. That’s what Lisa French was signing up for.

And this turned one thing the jury needed to resolve:

When Lisa French signed a bit of paper saying she’d pay “all prices of the hospital” — was she particularly agreeing to pay what was on the chargemaster?

And right here’s one factor that may’ve made jurors a bit skeptical on that rating: The hospital by no means confirmed that chargemaster record to Lisa French. Not earlier than her surgical procedure, not after it. They stated it was a commerce secret.

Ted Lavender: they went during trial. By no means producing it although. We, we, we requested on the very starting, as soon as the lawsuit was filed, , principally you get to ask questions. Give me this data, give me data that helps your case or helps my case.

And we ask particularly for the cost grasp they usually refuse to provide it on the idea that it was confidential and proprietary.

Dan: By withholding that record, the hospital could have helped Ted Lavender make his argument: How may Lisa French have identified what she was signing up for, if she couldn’t see the costs?

Ted Lavender: if we will’t get it via our subpoena energy, how on this planet would Lisa Friendship been in a position to make use of it by, had she requested?

And admittedly she didn’t ask for it, but when she had, absolutely they wouldn’t have given it to her both.

Dan: In the long run, the jury agreed: Lisa French had not particularly agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster costs.

And the one different various was: She agreed to pay one thing cheap.

The jury determined she owed the hospital seven hundred seventy six {dollars} and 74 cents

Mainly, that’s the 300 and a few left over from the unique estimate, plus some additional — as a result of she wound up staying within the hospital one evening greater than anticipated: She owed a payment for late check-out.

After all the hospital didn’t take that mendacity down. They appealed the end result– and gained! Ted Lavender appealed that call, which is how the case ended up in entrance of the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

We’ve really received tape of these proceedings. They’re kinda juicy. Plus the end result, and why it issues for the remainder of us. That’s proper after this.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Well being Information–previously often known as Kaiser Well being Information.

They’re a nationwide newsroom producing in-depth journalism about well being care in America. We’ll have extra details about KFF Well being Information on the finish of this episode.

OK, so Lisa French’s case was headed to the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

And right here’s the massive concern. Keep in mind how the jury discovered that Lisa French hadn’t really agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster value, the 300 and three thousand {dollars}?

The hospital argued: The jury by no means ought to’ve been requested to contemplate that query.

The regulation — authorized precedent — makes it open and shut: The appeals courtroom had agreed. And it had cited different instances from courts across the nation.

So when the hospital’s lawyer, Mike McConnell, received as much as deal with the Supreme Courtroom, he led with these citations.

Mike McConnell: All the questions that you’ve got raised have been addressed in additional than a dozen instances across the nation. rigorously and completely.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: Properly, let me push again on you. Good morning to you, Mr. McConnell.

Mike McConnell: Good morning.

Dan: That is Justice Richard L Gabriel, stepping proper in. He notes that these dozen different choices all relaxation on one unique case, from 2008, the place a courtroom had stated: We are able to’t intervene in well being care pricing. Courts shouldn’t attempt. Well being care is simply too difficult.

Justice Gabriel wasn’t satisfied.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: I assume the query I’ve is why, you realize? I, you realize, we might not be the neatest individuals on this planet, however this can be a contract and why ought to the hospital trade— completely different than some other trade on the planet —have completely different guidelines for contract ideas?

Dan: The hospital lawyer argued that hospitals couldn’t predict the whole lot that might occur in a affected person’s care. In actual fact, the hospital can’t even management it: Solely physicians can resolve what therapy to order.

Mike McConnell: You’ll be able to, uh, I assume think about that hospitals ought to have the ability to predict prematurely what a selected doctor goes to order for a selected affected person. Um, and, uh, maybe, you realize, clearly you’re feeling that’s the manner it must be. It isn’t the best way it’s, however now

Justice Melissa Hart: Mr. Mr. McConnell, I’m sorry, to interrupt…

Dan: Right here’s justice Melissa Hart breaking in

Justice Melissa Hart: …the hospital did present an estimate on this case. They did calculate what they thought this was going to price and inform her that. So it’s, it appears false to me that they’ll’t do it. After all, they’ll’t predict with absolute certainty. On this case, she had the additional evening keep within the hospital and she or he paid for that. However they’ll predict in a case like this, they usually do.

Dan: The justices didn’t appear super-persuaded by McConnell’s response to that. And that left yet one more massive query in entrance of the justices.

When Lisa French signed a doc promising to pay “all prices,” was she undoubtedly agreeing to pay 300 and three thousand {dollars}? Or 229 after insurance coverage.

The appeals courtroom discovered that the chargemaster price — the 303 thousand — had been “integrated by reference” to the doc she’d signed, formally referred to as the “hospital providers settlement.”

The supreme courtroom wasn’t satisfied. Right here’s Justice Richard Gabriel once more.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: There’s no reference to the cost grasp on the face of the hospital providers settlement.

How may she have assented to one thing she by no means even knew existed?

Dan: And right here’s how the hospital’s lawyer responded.

Mike McConnell: When she learn the supply, all prices not in any other case paid by insurance coverage. She understood that the hospital prices would, she was accountable for paying the hospital prices that her insurance coverage firm did it,

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: No matter it was. They may have charged her a billion {dollars} and she or he’s your place to be she’s sure as a result of she agreed. All prices means all prices.

Dan: Huh! There wasn’t an actual comeback to that.

The Supreme Courtroom dominated in opposition to the hospital, unanimously. Particularly, they dominated that the chargemaster– the 303 thousand {dollars}– had not been “integrated by reference” to the piece of paper Lisa French had signed.

She didn’t know these chargemaster record costs even existed. How may she conform to pay them?

In order that meant, the courtroom dominated that, quote, “the hospital providers agreements left the value time period open.”

Which is language which will ring a bell, when you’ve been listening to this present. It’s a authorized precept — a bedrock of contract regulation:

How the regulation treats an open-price contract — a contract that doesn’t specify a value time period.

Right here’s a refresher on that precept from Ted Lavender.

Ted Lavender: when you go to McDonald’s and order a, 1 / 4 pounder with cheese and you realize, worth meal quantity three, they let you know the value and that’s the value that you must pay. After which they provide you your meal.

You enter that contract with an precise value time period

Dan: However you too can enter an open-price contract — a contract with out a value time period.

Ted Lavender: when you have a contract with out a value time period, with out a particular value in it, then the regulation infer into that contract an inexpensive value.

Dan: In different phrases, a contract with the value time period OPEN just isn’t a clean test. I don’t must pay no matter quantity the opposite aspect makes up.

And that’s what the Colorado Supreme Courtroom discovered right here.

They dominated that, quote, “ideas of contract regulation can definitely be utilized to hospital-patient contracts.” They are saying, a courtroom could have dominated in any other case in 2008, and different courts could have cited that opinion. We disagree.

The Colorado Supreme Courtroom is saying, even in well being care, when no value is specified– when the value time period is open– you could have the suitable to an inexpensive value.

Sure!

And that’s why Lisa French’s case is so attention-grabbing to us, right here on this present.

As a result of we’ve talked right here about utilizing this authorized precept to struggle again in opposition to outrageous payments.

We’ve heard from one man, Jeffrey Fox, who really took a hospital to small claims courtroom to implement his proper to an inexpensive value. And gained.

We’ve heard from a listener who tried and failed, however stated, extra of us ought to do that.

And this Colorado choice looks like excellent news for anyone all in favour of doing one thing like that.

However actually, it additionally raises a number of considerations that I had not identified about earlier than. First:

Properly, there ARE all these different instances on the market, in different states, that observe the 2008 case, the one that claims well being care is simply too difficult for courts to get into.

And yeah, right here’s Colorado saying, “No it isn’t.”

However courts in different states aren’t sure by Colorado’s choice. Hm. And second: there’s additionally one thing the Colorado courtroom DIDN’T resolve:

What if the paper Lisa French signed had specified, “I conform to pay the hospital’s CHARGEMASTER charges?” Might she be required to pay them then? Even when they had been a billion {dollars}?

Of their choice, The Colorado courtroom wrote that the chargemaster charges are “more and more arbitrary” and “inflated” and “have misplaced any direct connection to hospitals precise price.”

So Ted Lavender thinks they may’ve stated, No, we will’t be held to a billion {dollars}, simply by including the phrase “chargemaster.”

Ted Lavender: I believe they might’ve answered that. No, however they didn’t come proper out and truly reply that.

Dan: As a result of they didn’t HAVE to reply that query.

Ted Lavender: Courts routinely, in truth, it’s nearly an goal of appeals courts. They reply as few a variety of questions as attainable to get to a solution. ,

Dan: So the Colorado courtroom simpley dominated that in Lisa French’s case, the chargemaster charges weren’t “integrated by reference” into papers she signed.

These papers didn’t didn’t point out the chargemaster in any respect– and the hospital saved that chargemaster as a commerce secret. Open, shut.

However… hospitals aren’t supposed to maintain these charges secret anymore. For the final couple of years, due to an govt order from the Trump administration, federal guidelines have required them to put up their chargemaster to the web.

And so I had all that in thoughts once I heard from a listener in Atlanta.

Cindi Gatton: my identify is Cindy Gatton and I’ve been an impartial affected person advocate for 11 years now.

Dan: Cindi’s job helps individuals cope with medical payments, however she had really written to me about her expertise as a affected person.

Earlier than a medical appointment, she received the same old varieties on-line, together with one for “Affected person Monetary Settlement and Obligations”

Cindi Gatton: so I assumed, you realize what? I’m gonna print it and simply see precisely what it says. And I’m studying via the factor it says, affected person understands and agrees that he, she shall be cost. The Piedmont Healthcare Customary cost grasp charges for all providers not lined by a payer or which might be self-pay.

I’ve by no means seen that earlier than, and it shocked me that there was a reference to cost grasp charges within the monetary disclosure.

Dan: And Cindi has been coping with medical payments full-time for a decade. She’s seen rather a lot. So when she says it’s new, and that it’s stunning, that appears value noting.

Cindi Gatton: it simply feels mistaken to me. It feels actually mistaken as a result of it, it jogs my memory of, you realize, you, you go to an internet site they usually offer you their phrases and situations. No one reads these. I don’t learn them. You click on sure in an effort to transfer on with what it’s you wanna do, which is to get care, to be seen by the physician to, you realize, have your process.

And I don’t know this, this feels, um, it feels manipulative to me

Dan: Yeah, and to me, it feels ominous. Like legal professionals who work for hospitals have been being attentive to the Lisa French choice and pondering:

There’s a wedge right here possibly we may exploit. Like, if we get you to signal a doc that claims “chargemaster” on it, we’re getting you to signal away your proper to an inexpensive value. In any case, the courtroom in Colorado didn’t come out and say that wouldn’t be kosher.

So, the place I’m touchdown on the finish of this story is: I’ve received a pair massive homework assignments:

First, if I’m all in favour of seeing how we will use our authorized rights to struggle again in opposition to outrageous, unreasonable payments — and I’m —

I have to be taught extra about which states acknowledge our rights to an inexpensive value in well being care, and which of them … possibly don’t. I’m on it, and when you’ve received any ideas, please deliver them.

That’s the primary task, and for the second, I’d love your assist: What number of hospitals are utilizing this “chargemaster” language as of late in these monetary responsbility paperwork they ask us to signal?

Do me a favor: See if you will get a replica of that doc from any hospital system or physician group the place you get seen. And ship me a replica of it?

Redact something that you must. And in addition know: we’re not aiming to share this with anyone outdoors our reporting group.

Right here’s what occurred once I tried this.

A hospital the place I get seen makes use of a portal referred to as MyChart– a whole lot of hospitals use it. I simply logged on to MyChart there, and I did a bit digging round. I discovered a hyperlink to one thing referred to as “My Paperwork.” And I discovered a type there referred to as Common Consent.”

It has stuff about monetary duty.

It doesn’t point out chargemaster charges. But it surely’s a 12 months outdated. It additionally says it’s expired.

And right here’s an concept I received from Cindi, which I’m gonna attempt– and which appears value passing round.

When Cindi discovered that chargemaster language within the doc from her Hospital, right here’s what she did. She printed it out and altered it:

Cindi Gatton: what I did is as a substitute of the usual cost grasp charges, I drew a line via it and I wrote in two x Medicare charges.

Dan: In different phrases, as a substitute of claiming “I’ll pay the chargemaster charges,” it says, “I’ll pay two occasions the Medicare price.”

We’ve heard about this technique earlier than, from former ProPublica reporter Marshall Allen, who wrote about it in his e book, “By no means Pay the First Invoice.”

Right here’s the rationale. Medicare pays lower than most business insurance coverage; hospitals say that no less than typically they lose cash on Medicare. Doubling it appears … beneficiant sufficient. But it surely additionally units a restrict.

In order that’s what Cindi wrote on her printout.

Cindi Gatton: I’ve been taking it with me once I go to be seen that in the event that they ask me for the doc that I can say, you realize, right here it’s.

Dan: To date, she says, no person’s requested for it.

And, I don’t assume anyone shall be confused, however simply to verify, I’ll say: This isn’t authorized recommendation. I’m not a lawyer. Cindi’s not a lawyer.

She’s only a individual going to the physician, doing her finest to not depart too many openings the place she may get actually screwed. And I’m gonna attempt following her instance.

And I’ve received one other request for you: When you do that trick of printing the factor out, exxing out the chargemaster language and writing 2 x medicare charges– LET ME KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, OK?

The place to do all that is on our web site at arm and a leg present dot com, slash contact. That’s arm and a leg present dot com, slash, contact.

You’re this present’s secret weapon. You’re our eyes and ears. Cindi Gatton’s a listener who received in contact.

How did I first study Lisa French’s case? Electronic mail from a listener. [Thank you, Terry N, for that note last year! Took us a minute, but we got to this.]

Thanks for listening. You completely rule. I’ll catch you quickly.

Until then, handle your self.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with assist from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Afi Yellow-Duke.

Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Periods.

Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for viewers. She edits the First Assist Equipment Publication.

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballema is our operations supervisor.

An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Well being Information–previously often known as Kaiser Well being Information.

That’s a nationwide newsroom producing in-depth journalism about well being care in America, and a core program at KFF — an impartial supply of well being coverage analysis, polling, and journalism.

And sure, you probably did hear the identify Kaiser in there, and no: KFF isn’t affiliated with the well being care big Kaiser Permanente. You’ll be able to be taught extra about KFF Well being Information at arm and a leg present dot com, slash KFF.

Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at KFF Well being Information. He’s editorial liaison to this present.

Because of Public Narrative — That’s a Chicago-based group that helps journalists and nonprofits inform higher tales– for serving as our fiscal sponsor, permitting us to simply accept tax-exempt donations. You’ll be able to be taught extra about Public Narrative at www dot public narrative dot org.

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Thanks!

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